Neudohum

[fred]

There's been considerable talk on the use of Neudohum here recently. I think it's worth devoting some attention to this substrate.

From what I've read on the forum and found on the web, Neudohum is a peat-free substrate high in organic content, it contains:

bark humus (composted bark),
pine bark
wood and coconut fiber
clay
pH 6.1 - salt 1.5g/l - N 300 mg/l - phosphate 200mg/l - potash 600 mg/l

Product-overview on the net:
http://www.neudorff.de/produkte/produkt-katalog/katalog/neudohum-pflanzerde.html

The substrate is inoculated with fungi that provide a buffer against plant pathogens. I presume the fungi are necessary because a soil with this amount of organic compounds is an ideal breeding ground for a large amount of organisms. I didn't find any reports that the fungi are mycorrhiza, I think the substrate has been inoculated with Trichoderma or others that have the same effect: blocking out other micro-organisms.

Neudohum is produced by a company called Neudorff, and will probably be unknown outside of Germany.

Suppose growers based outside Germany would want to mix their own Neudohum, do we have any tips on the ratio of the compounds ? Would it suffice to sterilise the mix and inoculate with Trichoderma or are other organisms involved ?

regards,
Fred

[berthold]

Fred, this potting soil has a very high content of nutrients what you normally avoid in orchid cultivation. So you get very strong tubers in this soil. See the new tuber left grown in Neudohum compared with the old tuber (right) grown in a conventional medium (the alpine orchid Traunsteinera globosa).



and even more extreme Dactylorhiza romana (the size of the new tuber wasn't expected so the pot was to small)

[ophrys]

Spectacular........

I need it !

Regards
W.

[claus]

Hi Fred,

Berthold is the "inventor" of using NeudoHum as compost for terrestrial orchids. After his first statements we didn't believe him entirely. But by testing species after species it was clear that his proposals have been well-founded.

NeudoHum contains an endo-mykorrhiza of the species Glomus intraradices. The fungus generally penetrates with his hyphae into the roots of plants and then lives with the plant in a form of symbiosis. As the hyphae of the fungus are superfine in comparison to the plant's roots they can better absorb water and nutrients. It's a kind of extension of the plant's roots. The plants get better power of resistence against diseases and pests.

Thats part of the advertising of the producing company. If that's all applicable to orchids I really don't know. I don't believe that Glomus intraradices is a real symbiotic orchid fungus. But it possibly could protect orchids against aggressors. The success is remarkable.

Greetings
Claus

[berthold]

[fred]

The amount of organic material also made me raise a few eyebrows when I saw Berthold's first photographs, that's why I started this thread. As I stated before, this product will be unknown outside Germany/Europe, so all this info is very valuable to reproduce the medium.

I found a first source of these Glomus spp. They can be purchased online together with other genera in tablet-form:

http://www.fungi.com/mycogrow/index.html

I wonder if they can be bought per strain instead of mixed.

regards,
Fred

[larsb]

When i google the fungi mentioned i come up with several hits from people who grows weed, with website names such as weedbay or magic mushroom. That leads me to believe that there must be European souces for this fungus for non-commercial buyers. The website you mention prefer to deal with their home audience in the USA. I'll keep looking for a source, but if anyone find one, i'd love to hear about it. Bertholds results are incredible, but it will be fairly costly to import compost in small quantities from Germany.

Kind regards

[auricular]

Good morning,

here you can buy inoculated granulate:

http://www.amykor.de/


Kind regards


Bernie

[fred]

I contacted Jim Gouin from Fungi.com and they do ship to customers outside the U.S. , but there's a catch. It appears that a number of countries (i.e. Germany) have restrictions on the import of mycorrhizae, please check with you local agricultural department before ordering.

He's also surprised by the impact of these fungi, they're arbuscular and don't interact with orchid root cells. Anyway, he gave me a new lead to someone who should have insight in the mechanism.

[berthold]

[fred]

I know, Berthold, I don't have difficulty in understanding that. What I don't understand is this:
These innoculated mixes are intended for plants which will associate with these fungi - there are
Neudohum-like soils for roses, tomatoes, hibiscus, ... but all of them contain fungi which are put
there because they're supposed to associate with the roots of these plants and improve growth.
The Glomus, Trichoderma,... create a safe environment for your orchids because they stop root and
tuber-rot which normally sets in very fast in organic-rich media. It could probably also help in other
media (see the "Chlorosis" thread) No problem in understanding so far

Your results are a bit more spectacular than simply stopping rot or infection: tubers which are two
to three times the size of the previous one. This is indeed due to the high nutritional value of the
medium, but I was looking for the mechanism behind this. In other words: do the arbuscular fungi
stop all other organisms except the orchid mycorrhizal ones? A large number of orchid mycorrhiza
show behaviour that is comparable to plant pathogens (some even are pathogens), will they be
pushed out by the arbuscular ones or not ? In your last post you say "The soil doesn't work with
chlorophyll free orchids of course. " ... so I assume you mean that the arbuscular pushes the
orchidaceous out, correct ? This is why I'm contacting these people, to find out what's actually
happening there. Stating that it doesn't work with achlorophyllous species answers my question.

Re-reading my posts I see that I didn't explain very well what I was looking for. As one of my ex-
colleagues would say: "information delivered is not the same as information received"

[berthold]

[fred]

Yes, that was what I was after, thanks for clarifying. This is actually a very big contribution you
achieved for our hobby:

- avoid (or greatly reduce) dependency of the mycorrhiza in adult stage
- defense against pathogens
- high nutritional value
- better resistance towards overwatering

Let's take a look at the evaluated species:

Orchis morio, O. elegans, O. lactea, O. papilionacea
Dactylorhiza romana
Thelymitra rubra
Ponerorchis graminifolia
Habenaria tridactylites
and Frank is trying Codonorchis lessonii

... pretty impressive if you ask me.
Those are the plants I found on the forum, I know there are many more, but those where posted on
the german forum and that data is lost

I'm in the middle of preparing oatmeal batches for a few mycorrhiza. I think I'll add a couple of
bottles to culture a few Glomus and Trichoderma spp. for soil innoculation. It's probably better to do
it with tablets but it's worth trying, like most of you I also grow other plants besides orchids that
might benefit.

[berthold]

[larsb]

Thank you for the address, Bernie. I've written to them and asked how to order. I've forgotten most of the German i learned in school and is completely helpless nowaday, so i hope they have somebody who understand English.

Kind regards

[volzotan]

Today I'm growing Orchis langei, Himantoglossum adriaticum, Cypripedium reginae, Dactylorhiza purpurella, D. majalis, D. nieschalkiorum and Spiranthes cernua in pure Neudohum. I will test some more species, I think we should compare our experiences here in the forum.

Greetings,
volzotan

[erdorchideen]

Hmmm,
I am working on different species, too. South American seedlings mainly, but also the tests with adult European species are very promising.

I have, by the way about 2 litres of a Glomus inoculated on clay pebbles (which was measured for radioactivity at my work and then left to me from the supplier). If anyone likes to use it for any purpose just let me know.

[larsb]

[neil4768]

From what I read it states that it is not suitable for orchids.

[fred]

[berthold]

[neil4768]

[neil4768]

I have just had confirmation that this product

Rootgrowplus™

also contains Glomus intraradices so I am off to get some.

[berthold]

[neil4768]

All my orchids are grown some degree of organic material in them, which should be enough for the fungi. Not sure if sterilising is necessary for the fungi, as if this was being applied to plants grown in the ground then you would not sterilise that. What are you reasoning for sterilising the growing medium?

[berthold]

[larsb]

Can anyone recomend some methods for sterialise potting media?

Kind regards

[berthold]

pressure cooker, 20 minutes at 120° C

[fred]

as berthold says: pressure cooker. A small pointer: moisten the medium first, then put it in a pot or something with a loose lid that fits in the pressure cooker. When I sterilised soil for Amorphophallus titanum I used a microwave oven: place the moist soil in a ziplock, push out all the air and microwave it a number of times until the ziplock inflates. take it out, push out the air and put it back in. The smell of cooked soil is rather bad, so there's always some cleaning up afterwards. If you're sterilising more than a liter of volume, I'd pressure cook for minimum 30 minutes. Ungerminated spores at the center will survive 20 minutes.

[larsb]

Thanks. I'll go looking for a pressure cooker. (No , don't have a microwave, okay )

[neil4768]

Thanks for you answer Berthold


A word of warning about using a microwave if you have any stones etc in the medium they can explode. You could also stick it in an oven at 120C

[neil4768]

Right I have got my Rootgrowplus™ today and will add to some of my pots, I have quite a few Dact fuschii and purpurella in potted up individually.

I have also got some rootgrow rootfood™ and will give that a try in a number of the pots as well with and without the Rootgrowplus™ and will report back to you later in the year on the results.

[berthold]

keep in mind the job of the fungi should be to protect the orchids against unfriendly fungi not to support the orchids with nutrients and not to kill them by themselves. That you should test.
Greetings Berthold

[neil4768]

With the orchids that prefer a more free draining mixture (orchis, orphys) do you open the soil structure up with added grit? As I have a number orchis and orphys that I can do some experimentation on for next season.

[berthold]

[DavMac]

Has anyone had success in producing a Neudohum substitute? I was hoping to try last year but had an accident that laid me up for 3 months. Any suggestions in components to try would be appreciated.

David in New Zealand

[neil4768]

Going back to the mix for Neudohum what proportion of it is lignite (Braunkohle) ? What purpose does it serve and anyone know a source for it in the UK?

[neil4768]

Following on with my experiments for a substitute for Neudohum. I had 2 one year old tubers of Orchis anthropophorum planted up one was in a mix of 50% of Melcourt Sylvamix® Potting and 50% super coarse perlite, with Rootgrow added to the mix, the other was in a mix of 50% John Innes number 2 and 50% perlite and the rootgrow. Both tubers when they started where near enough the same size, about 10mm, sorry I can't find the photo of them that I took last year, but the result was the one the in the Melcourt Sylvamix® Potting did a lot better than the other one.

[andrew]

As both mixes were inoculated with fungi, I wonder whether the difference is in the Sylvamix itself or how the Rootgrow fungi perform in what appears to be a more organic mix. Correct me if I'm wrong but J.I. No. 2 has a high soil component and the organic component is peat, whereas the Sylvamix looks to be a mix of mostly bark/wood and coir, which I would have thought should be a lot more condusive to fungal growth.

Based on Berthold's results, a few months ago I deflasked an Ophrys and a Dactylorhiza into my own DIY Neudohum mix (30% low phosphate, bark-based potting mix; 20% Glomus inoculated, shredded eucalypt fibre; 50% medium-fine perlite). My plants seem to be growing well at the moment and I find your results very reassuring.

[Terra_Australis]

Andrew, did you get your Glomus from an Australian supplier?